On the February 12 Science Vs podcast, UCLA psychology professor and relationship expert Benjamin Karney shares insights from his research on lovers’ quarrels and the things that can make or break a romantic relationship.
Listen to the full podcast, here.
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Excerpt of the interview with Professor Karney:
Wendy Zukerman (WZ):
So today on the show – rather than getting our relationship advice from some rando on the internet – we’re going to get it from scientists!! Because there have been these amazing scientific studies that, in some cases, follow couples for years. And using the research – we’re going to find out:
- What is the best way to fight with your partner?? And how important is this?
- What are the science backed red flags in a relationship? And as part of this, we are going to talk a bit about what can happen when a partner becomes controlling or even violent.
- If you are in an unsafe relationship, can your partner change… or will things only get worse?
When it comes to relationships we all want to know if you’re wasting your time. And science is gonna help us get there….
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How to Have a Healthy Fight
WZ: … Bad Relationships: How can we avoid them… and get.. y’know good ones?? To kick us off I want you to meet Ben Karney, a psychology professor at UCLA, who studies love and relationships [1]. And he told me that what keeps him at it, after decades of researching this… is this:
Benjamin Karney (BK):
Everyone wants a connection that lasts. And when they have it, it feels so good. And yet it is so hard to find it and maintain it. People are desperate for a love potion or a trick or a hack?
Hence the gazillion videos on social media about it all… And this podcast! So Ben told me that when it comes to relationships – the stakes are high. Being in an unhappy and stressful relationship, doesn’t just suck, it’s bad for your health
BK: It is exceedingly harmful. There’s a ton of data that shows that it is tremendously harmful on a lot of levels to be in a distressing intimate relationship.[2]
It ups your chance of mental health problems, like depression[3][4]. And not just that[5]. Scientists have hooked couples up to IV lines during fights to take samples of their blood – while they’re fighting – and found that a bad fight ramps up your stress hormones[6] and even messes with your immune system[7]… and increases your risk of dying earlier[8][9]. So Ben is trying to help us avoid these relationships… to understand how couples can be happy… And to do this he studies a very particular kind of couple… Newlyweds
BK: Those couples are in love. They’re feeling optimistic about the future. And if you ask them, what do you think the future holds for you as a couple? They will all say the same thing. And they all do say the thing because we ask them. They say, we’re gonna be together forever.
WZ: It’s gonna be great.
BK: It’s going to be great, exactly. And what we study is what happens next.
WZ: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm mm-hm.
Over more than 30 years, he’s studied more than 1000 couples!! And these days, here’s how he does it. Let’s say you and your partner sign up for one of Ben’s studies…
BK: So we come to your home. So the lab is your home, your apartment or your house.
Ben and a colleague will interview you and your partner separately, and then get you together, again, set up a video camera on a little tripod. And from here — it’s basically Jerry Springer meets nerdville. So, he’ll tell you:
BK: We’re going to ask you to talk to each other about a topic that you disagree about. Can you come up with a topic that the two of you don’t see eye to eye on? And of course they can, even newlyweds can. There’s something we disagree about. And we say, great, then we’re gonna leave the room. Now we’re going to push play, leave the room. You guys talk for eight minutes, and then we’ll come back.
WZ: And what are the things people tend to be fighting about?
BK: All right, guess.
WZ: Money
BK: Yeah, nice work, number – that’s the top three.
WZ: Is that three! Family?
BK: That’s also the top three, in-laws, especially newlyweds, right? Because they’re learning, they’re having to deal with each other’s families for the first time. So in-laws are a big issue for newlyweds. And the other one is-
WZ: And then can I guess, is the other one chores around the house?
BK: 100%. Chores, yes. Household chores for sure.
After 8 minutes of fighting… Ben takes the video back to the lab, and him and his colleagues analyse it… looking to see: As this fight is unfolding
BK: Are people compromising? Are they blaming? Are they criticizing? Are they withdrawn? Are they engaged? Are they affectionate? And then we come back in six or nine months, and we do it all again[10]. And then again, and again, again, for years. And we see how the relationship evolves.
Through Ben’s work, and other researchers, who do similar stuff, they’ve found some clues as to what makes a great, healthy fight – and one that’s not so much like that.
One sign – that this fight isn’t a great one is if you’re trying to convince your partner – that YOU ARE RIGHT. And that might sound a bit like… You don’t need to wash the dishes before they go in the dishwasher because you’re just wasting water. Or… We should send our kids to public school – that’s obviously the morally correct thing to do. In other words…
BK: What I want is the right thing to want.
WZ: Hmmm
BK: And what you want is the wrong thing to want. So if I can just explain to you why your wanting what you want is wrong, then you’ll realize that we should both want what I want and I’ll get what I’ll want. And that is sort of a pitfall that it’s easy to fall into, even loving couples can fall into this.
WZ: A good fight isn’t about who is right…. But it’s about making things better for both partners. Which means another thing that Ben is looking for is: are you thinking about you and your partner as a team? With a problem that you’ve got to solve together? Or… not so much.
BK: The pitfall is that the problem is between us, or worse, the problem is you. So if I say, this is a problem, and you know what? You need to solve it. You need to shape up. Here’s another clue. Asking curious questions is a way of bringing my partner in. It’s a clue that I wanna be on the same page with you. So asking you a question, well, what does being clean mean to you? Or what kind of sex life would be ideal for you?
WZ: OR why is your father so annoying?
BK: Okay, well, see now we’re getting to, there’s another kind of question, which implies its own answer that is not a question that pulls your partner in, but that actually shuts your partner down.
WZ: Ohhhh
BK: I know, it’s so tempting.
WZ: I was curious!
BK: Did you really believe that was reasonable? That is not a question that has a real answer to it.
WZ: Why are you such an idiot?
BK: Yeah, exactly. That’s not a curious question, but asking curious questions brings your partner in.
WZ: Ah huh
And having a good fight, Ben says it is really important. In one of Ben’s studies of more than 400 couples[11], he found that those who fought well were also more likely to say they were more satisfied in the relationship, and more trusting of their partner[12]. Ben’s team has also found that bad fights, say, where couples aren’t listening to each other, are particularly hard on a relationship when people were already really stressed out.[13]
BK: You don’t care what your partner does every minute, but when you’ve had a bad day and you come home and you’re looking to your partner for support, that behavior matters.
If you fight badly, will you get divorced?
But online you might have seen a lot of videos where fighting well almost reaches this mythic status — that once you master this skill – it’s basically your ticket to living happily ever after… You might have heard that just by watching a couple fight, y’know, basically doing what Ben does, researchers can predict years down the line who will get divorced and who won’t …
With 93% accuracy he can tell if you a couple will get divorced by watching a silent video of them
Predict break up or divorce at the rate of over 90%
It’s scientifically proven that if you show all these signs – your marriage is in trouble
And so I asked Ben…
WZ: Is that true?
BK: No – that’s just not true. It’s not even close to true. The data on that is shockingly complicated and surprisingly weak.
WZ: Oh no!
BK: I know.
WZ: The research folks online are quoting is often getting misinterpreted[14] – and in fact – Ben says that while you can find studies that show fighting badly predicts higher divorce rates[15] and less relationship satisfaction – there’s other studies, where it’s a bit messy[16]. And one big review paper ultimately concluded that when you follow couples over time their communication style, or how well they fight – doesn’t consistently predict relationship satisfaction[17]. That is – you can’t just look at a couple fighting, look in your science crystal ball and give them a thumbs up or thumbs down[18]. Here’s Ben…
BK: Predicting the fate of a marriage is a lot like predicting the weather. So there are clearly many couples who don’t fight well and still have long and happy relationships[19]
WZ: So the question becomes – HOW HOW DO THEY DO IT??? Well Ben says that some happy couples who fight badly – really try not to fight. That is – they avoid conflict. Ben gave me an example…
BK: Your political beliefs offend me. I don’t agree with you. We don’t vote for the same candidate. But I love you in other ways. So guess what? We’re not going to be talking about politics very much in this relationship
WZ: Wow, and that can sustain – can last?
BK: It can, for some people. For other people, like I can’t not talk about politics. So this is a conflict we can’t avoid. Therefore we either figure out how to address it or we have a very bad relationship and leave it.
WZ: And then money fits into this, right? Because if you have a lot of money, you maybe don’t need to fight about it. Like if it’s, you know, are we gonna buy the fancy couch or the not fancy couch? Go ahead, honey, buy the fancy couch, I don’t care.
BK: Buy both couches. You’re absolutely right. The same conflict over spending maybe has a lot higher stakes. If we’re not deciding which couch to buy, we’re deciding which bill to pay and which bill to not pay. Now, the stakes are higher. This is a conflict we must resolve. And if we can’t resolve it we’re in trouble[20].
WZ: And this is one reason, Ben says, why couples in lower income situations have higher rates of divorce[21]. On the flip side, Ben’s research has found that when certain states in the US raised the minimum wage – the divorce rate dropped by around 10%[22] Ten percent lower. That’s not nothing!
BK: That’s not nothing at all! That’s real!
WZ: Here’s where we’re at. A healthy fight while it doesn’t guarantee you some fairytale relationship, staying together forever – it is still important, and ups the chance you’re gonna be happier together. And a healthy fight is one where you’re not fighting about “who’s right”; you’re thinking of each other as a team and you’re both curious about what you need.
After the break – Red Flags. How to tell early on in a relationship – when things might get bad. You want to know about these. Trust me…